Query Corner

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The Society's Query Corner has been running for many years but until recent times was confined to the pages of The Railway Observer.  Going forward, this page is the first place the questions and answers will be seen.

Both members and non members can pose or answer a question. Its primary purpose is to ask railway related questions where the answers may come from personal knowledge, observations or records rather than a book in a library.

To keep the website page to a manageable size, questions and answers will generally be archived after twelve months. However the questions and answers will still published in the RO so that they can be recorded for future enthusiasts to consult and even allow an answer to be provided many years down the line. Publishing timescales mean that the website may be up to two months ahead of items appearing in the RO.

If you are supplying a photograph you will need to confirm that you are the copyright holder or you have the holder's permission to use the picture. Any tables of data should be in Word or Excel format to enable easy translation into the printed version.

 

Have you got a new question or an answer?  Then e-mail querycorner@rcts.org.uk

Q24 11 : LMR Service Locos

Question

The LMR had four 0-6-0ST service locomotives at Wolverton Works being Numbered CD3, and CD6-8 in 1954. Ian Allan listed these as being a Webb version of Ramsbottom 'special tanks' dating from 1870. At which works were they built. The text implies that they were modified along the way. What were those modifications and when were they carried out?    John Hall (8583)

Answer

Q24.10 : WD 90773

Question

WDs 90773 and 90774 were both reported as carrying the name North British but when did each receive its name and when were the plates removed?

John Hall  (8583)

Answer

Q24.09: WD 2-8-0 and 2-10-0 purchases

Question

British Railways had many WDs on loan from the start of 1948 but at what date did they cease to be loan and engines and become BR owned?

John Hall (8583)

Answer

Q24.08 : Gresley Carriage livery

Question

Did any Gresley coach in carmine & cream livery ever bear the circular BR crest as seen on most maroon coaching stock?

John H. Atkinson (25414)                              March 2024

Answer

Q24.07 : GWR Flue Tubes

From 1925 the GWR fitted a pair of 5 1/8in diameter flue tubes in the upper corners of untapered boilers that had Belpaire fireboxes, working pressure 165psi and above and no superheater. This is said to have been intended to reduce cracking in the corners of the firebox. Tapered boilers like the 94xx never had this feature, but it was seen on all post 1934 designs and also on replacement boilers on smaller pre group pannier tanks and side tanks like 850s, 2021s possibly the 517s. Did any other Railway Companies use this design feature and if so which?

Jim Champ (25361) 27 February 2024

Answer

Q24.06 : Troon Harbour Scrap Yard

The SLS Scottish Rambler rail tour ran to Troon Harbour on 16/04/65 and during the loco run round time a number of participants visited the local Arnott Young scrap yard. Can anyone supply the numbers of the locomotives present on that day?

Martin Gilbert (25216) 27 February 2024

Answer

Q24.05 : Pink Concrete Posts.

Question

The original design of Automatic Half Barrier (AHB) level crossings have a concrete pillar onto which was usually bolted the supports for the flashing lights, and on which the barriers themselves are pivoted. There were two designs of post, one taller than the other, but what they have in common is that they have a slightly pink colour. This is presumably a result of a particular type of aggregate used in their manufacturing. I’m seeking to ascertain where these posts were manufactured, and was it by accident or design that they had the pink hue?

Nick Garnham (15261) 19 Feb 2024

Answer

Q24.04 : 37308 in preservation.

Question

Cl. 37 37308 was moved to the Dean Forest Railway on 29/5/12. It was seen again at the Severn Valley Railway in August 2020 painted light blue but under a tarpaulin. When did it leave the DFR/arrive at the SVR and did it go to another site along the way?   Information required for the Society Loco database.

Andrew Lait  19 Feb 2024

Answer

The movement of preserved Cl 37 37308 from the Dean Forest Railway appears to have been directly to the Severn Valley Railway, this occurring on 12th July 2020.

This date is quoted on the Class37.co.uk website as advised by Guy Vincent but also independently by David Crawley (18883).

March 2024

Q24.03 : Eastleigh Works Foundry

Question

When did the Iron Foundry close at Eastleigh Works, reputably  around 1964 at the latest?

John Redgate 13470

Answer

The closure date for Eastleigh Works foundry was 1962. This date is taken from the most authoritative book "An illustrated History of Eastleigh Locomotive Works" by Colin Boocock and Peter Stanton. Following closure the site was used initially for the repair of containers which were then used on four wheel wagons and lorries. By 1966 the use of these small containers decreased as ISO containers were increasingly being used and it was then modified and half of the area then set aside for the repair of four wheel vans such as CCT's and PMV's which were the first vehicles transferred from the carriage works for repair and maintenance.   Gordon Adams

Q24.02 : Class 73 names

Question

73128 was unofficially named INTERNATIONAL RESCUE on one side only.  Was this only for an open day or gala at the Chasewater Railway on 15th July 2007?  If not, how long was it carried?

73141 was named David Gay on one side and Ron Westwood on the other at Brighton station on 20th February 2009, the nameplates were reported to have been removed in June 2009, before it was renamed on 11th July 2009.  Can any member advise, with photos if possible, whether those names were lower case, which seems likely, or upper case, and if they were cast or vinyl nameplates?

Andrew Lait

Answer

Q24.01 : Type 2 movements

Question

Question 23.05 asked for information concerning the movement of various preserved locomotives. Despite no doubt several member visits to some of the locations not one item of information has so far been received.  Further questions from Andrew Lait are now seeking answers.

  1. 20228, still as CFD 2004, was moved to Barrow Hill on 10th July 2007 and appeared there at the Cl.20 gala from 13th to 15th July.  Was it returned to Barry immediately after that gala or did it remain at Barrow Hill for some time and, if so, when was it returned to Barry?  It returned to service on the Barry Island Railway in late July 2012 still as CFD 2004.
  2. Does any member know when 25265 was moved to Nemesis Rail, Burton-on-Trent?  The last reliable photos of it at the Great Central Railway were taken in November 2011.  In February 2023 it was covered over with a blue tarpaulin at Nemesis Rail.
  3. For 25909 The in-progress modern traction database currently has Moved to Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway, Toddington arriving on 18/7/96. It was sold to Real Charter Services in 1996, but was sold back to Pete Waterman later in the year.  Moved from store at L&NWR, Crewe to Scottish Railway Preservation Society, Bo'ness on 24-25/11/04.  Can any member advise when it was moved from Toddington to Crewe and were there any other movements between 1996 and 2004?
  4. 25067  The most recent report seen was attending a gala in summer 2014.  When was it moved to Nemesis Rail, Burton-upon-Trent?
Answer

Q23.17 : Bricklayers Arms

Question

The accompanying photograph purports to have been taken at Bricklayers Arms. Is it there, and if so where exactly, or is it a completely different?

Answer

Q23.16 : Southampton Signalling

Question

What was the fate of the famous signal gantry at the western end of Southampton Central and when was it dismantled? Martin Boddy (4341)

Answer

Q23.15 : Euston in the 1960s

Question

At the old Euston station there was a small brick building opposite the buffer stops at Platform 1 with a concave glass window where all the main line arrivals were displayed on possibly bronze plates at the back of the room. Were they saved and if so where  are they now?   Martin Boddy (4341)

Answer

Q23.14 : Class 40 names

Question

A number of questions have recently focused on the data needed to make the new Society Modern Traction Database as comprehensive as possible, and it is still hoped to make this resource available to members in the first half of 2024. In recent years comprehensive information has been given in the RO concerning locomotive names but it would seem that for many years the removal of nameplates went unrecorded.  Any dated sightings of locos that have gained or lost names are welcome but on this occasion we are looking specifically at Cl. 40s where there are no dates at all for the removal of the nameplates fitted to D210-25/7-36. Research so far indicates that plates might have started to ‘disappear’ as early as 1970 with, so far, no photos emerging of renumbered Cl. 40s carrying their original plates. Of course early ‘removals’ may have been at the hands of so called enthusiast and have been on one side only but it would appear that at some point an official policy to remove plates was introduced.  By around 1980 some of the batch started to receive hand painted names, these either being in small white lettering or with white letters and a border with a red background. Therefore can members please check their photographs and notes for dates when plates were fitted/no longer fitted post 1968 and then if/when hand painted names, and of which variety, were first recorded on each loco, although it is thought that some appear not to have been so adorned.

Answer

An article in the January 2024 edition of the Railway Magazine provides a lot of information about the application of painted names on the class 40s with exact dates in most cases as well as advising on the style of application. This information has been included in the Society’s loco database and will hopefully be available for access shortly. Some information was also given on removal of the original plates which appears to have started in 1968 and was complete by 1975 but it should be noted that a number of locomotives did not lose both plates at the same time.  The request to advise the dates of any photograph of a loco with or without its nameplates between 1968 and 1975 remains open.

Q23.13: Class18

Question

As part of the Society’s Modern Traction Database project information is needed on the movement of 18002.  It is known that it left the Chasewater Railway, where it was commissioned and tested, on 7th March 2022.  A source implied that it may have gone directly to Wolverton Works and it is known that it was there by November 2022. Did it move directly there- if so on what date did it arrive and if not where was it between March and September 2022?Question

Answer

Q23.12 : Norweigan Stock

Question

A member visiting Norway in July noted the vehicle shown in the picture accompanying this question in the October RO and requests details of its use or any other information relating to it. D Flatman 17908

Answer

Q23.11 : Lingfield Motive Power

Question

A member travelled regularly on the Lingfield to Croydon route from 1953-1956. Can any member advise the typical motive power used on passenger services on the line and/or specific numbers recorded?               D Pawley

Answer

Photographs show that typical motive power in the Lingfield area in 1953/4 were both the LMS and BR Standard designed 4MT 2-6-4 tanks. U1 2-6-0s were noted in use on race specials.

Q23.10 : Class 66 arrivals

Question

The following information is requested for inclusion in the Society's loco database project. What was the name of the ship used to deliver 66006-11 from the manufacturer?                                                                    Andrew Lait

Answer

Mike Kennard has advised that the MV Stellamare brought Freightliner Cl. 66 66006-11 to this country.

Q23.09 : Shunter Wasp Stripes

Question

Q21.14 Related to Wasp stripes on shunters for which additional information is still requested.  Another variation was seen on Cl. 03 shunters as built where large sized numbers were applied when new, long after the official size had been reduced. In addition a full stop was carried after the ‘D’. This continued into the D23XX series but D2388 appears to have been out shopped in the standard style. Was this the first of the class not to have the large numbers and full stop. Did any other class of shunters have a full stop as part of the number? Another variation was the use of large numbers but prefixed with a small D. This was noted on a number of classes including 04, 05, 08 and 10 with most being allocated to the Eastern Region. Which works used this style and for how long?                               Ian Chancellor

Answer

Q23.08 : Class 88 Liveries

Question

The Compass livery on Cl.88s has an image within the Compass and also a ‘spider’s web’ pattern on the bodyside. It seems that each loco might carry a different image. Can members please check photographs and observations to advise the image carried by each loco and are they different on each side? Also can members confirm that 68016-25 carry the same Compass logo with map that is carried by 68001-5/8/9.                                                   (Andrew Lait: 19501).

Answer

Q23.07 : Class 40 D226

Question

Class 40 D226 was never reported as named, an odd one out from its batch but it was reported at the time that the name Media had been allocated to it. A number of years later a Media nameplate in class 40 style was seen at auction and was said to have traces of green paint on it. Has any member got a photo or other information that would confirm the carrying of the plate? Information required for the Society Modern Traction Database.

Answer

Class 40 nameplate- Media. When this nameplate was exhibited at the Crewe Works Millennium Nameplate Exhibition held on 20th and 21st of May 2000 it was described as ‘not carried’, although that does not explain the presence of any green paint.                                                                                                                                    John Redgate

Q23.06 : HST Power Car 43125

Question

HST Power car 43125 carried the name Merchant Venturer, initially as a cast nameplate and from around 6/94 the second style ‘engraved’ type plate. At a recent railwayana auction a plate in the latter style with the name Merchant Adventurer was for sale and was said to have evidence of being carried in service. If indeed the plate was carried was it on 43125 or another loco? For the former, checking of photographs taken around 6/94 might be beneficial or of course any other confirmed sighting. Information required for the Society Modern Traction Database.

Answer

Q23.05 : Classes 20 and 25

Question

Details are requested of movement dates for the following Cl.20s & Cl. 25s in the preservation era. They may have also been at additional locations between those shown but please note that we are not including short term moves to attend galas.

Loco number          Last recorded at                                 Now thought to be at

20001                   Midland Railway Centre                       Epping & Ongar Railway

20016                   Barrow Hill                                         Caledonian Railway, Brechin

20020                   Wensleydale Railway                           Bo’ness & Kinnel Railway

20048                   Great Central Railway                          Midland Railway Centre

20056                   Scunthorpe Steel Works                      Harry Needle Barrow Hill

20057                   Barrow Hill                                         Churnet Valley Railway

20059                   Severn Valley Railway                         Mid Hants Railway

20066                   Scunthorpe Steel Works                      HNRC Barrow Hill

20081                   Cambrian Railway                               Caledonian Railway, Brechin

20088                   Barrow Hill                                         Caledonian Railway, Brechin

20110                   East Lancs Railway                              Battlefield line

20169                   Wensleydale Railway                           Private site at Tebay (since moved)

20188                   Severn Valley Railway                         Mid Hants Railway

25057                   North Norfolk Railway                         HNRC Worksop

25067                   Battlefield Line                                   Nemesis Rail, Burton

25191                   North Yorkshire Moors Railway            South Devon Railway

25265                   Great Central Railway                         Nemesis Rail, Burton

25309                   Glouces-Warks Railway                       Peak Rail

Answer

Andrew Lait’s updating and researches for the Modern Traction Database have identified most of the movement dates, with a few having moved again more recently as reported in his Locomotive Stock Alterations section.  20056 is believed to be still at Scunthorpe Steel Works unless any member knows otherwise. Question 24/01 lists more detailed questions relating to another four of those locomotives.

Update

On the 8th a Cl. 20 carrying the number 81 was noted in store at Scunthorpe Steel Works, this almost certainly being the former 20056. It is understood to have been heavily robbed of parts.

Gordon Stubbins (18602)                                                                                                 March 2024

Q23.04 : Festival of Britain Trains

Question

On 5th May 1951 five new named trains were launched by British Railways to coincide with the opening of the Festival of Britain. Each of the trains on the Midland, Southern and Eastern Regions were promoted by a handbill featuring 70000 Britannia. The Western Region ran the Merchant Venturer and the William Shakespeare. Did similar handbills exist for these trains?

Bob Owen 24565

Answer

Q23.03 : Where is Cayton

Question

Whilst searching for photos for use in the new RCTS book on the 8Fs the author found an image caption as 48767 at Cayton signal box, this box clearly being of LNWR origin. However Cayton is on the NE line from Hull to Scarborough. Can any member advise the actual location?

D Tyreman 7972

Answer

Cayton or Gayton? Where was 8F 48767 pictured if not at Cayton. Checking on line images the signal box in the picture is definitely not Cayton and atlases do not list any other location of that name. John Gott has suggested that the box might be Gayton near Blisworth and study of online images appears to confirm that.

Q23.02 : King Resurrections

Question

It is understood that in the autumn of 1962 three Kings were taken out of store to work Newbury Racecourse specials. 6000 and 6005 are thought to be two of the three. Which was the third?
(Colin Earp 14209)

Answer

Hugh Longworth’s book BR Steam Locomotive Allocations 1948-1968 makes no mention of any Kings being stored/returned to traffic in the period 9/62 to 12/62 but the only Kings to remain in stock after the conclusion of the summer timetable were 6000/5/11/8/25.

There is a photograph of 6011 in use in December 1962 plus several of 6000/5/18.

There is also a picture of 6025 on a race special at Newbury Racecourse station dated 24 November 1962 and 6000 was also present. Did specials that autumn run on more than one day as another picture of 6000 is dated 27 October 1962?

Q23.01 : Haymarket’s Last Steam

Question

A visitor to Haymarket shed on 6th August 1963 was told that A4 60012 Commonwealth of Australia was being prepared for use on the final Haymarket A4 duty. Can anyone confirm if this was correct and if so what was that duty? Also what was the last steam duty/ loco from Haymarket and when?
Colin Earp 14209

Answer

Q21.14 : 350 HP Shunter Wasp Stripes

Question

When were Yellow and Black (Wasp) stripes first applied to 350 hp diesel shunters and which was the first loco to receive them?

David Tyreman (7972)

Answer